The Trinity Doctrine and how we know God

When we understand who Jesus is, we understand who God is.

"Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" -- John 14:8-9

This is the affect of the Trinity doctrine on an ex-Jehovah's Witness: 

Instead of seeing God as a distant dictator who sent others to do His dirty work, we see God coming to us, He loves us so much that He was willing to give up His glory, walk among us, eat with us, touch us... and even wash our feet, even when He knew we wold betray Him. The Trinity doctrine causes us to realize that God does not sit on a distant throne giving orders to others and expecting us to struggle, struggle, struggle to Him. No... He comes to us.  Jesus ate dinner with thieving tax collectors, prostitutes, and dispicable cowards. Jesus was not proud, constantly judging in a harsh manner.   Jesus said that He came to save us rather than to condemn or destroy us, and He proved it with His actions. The Trinity doctrine makes us more like Christ because it teaches us who God is.

Does your God wash feet? Love and help sinners? Do you?

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being,- Hebrews 1:3

Have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself - Philippians 2:5-8

Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."- John 8:19
The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.- John 12:45

We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ.- 1 John 5:20

As a Jehovah's Witness I argued against the Trinity doctrine.

I would like to show you my attitude about the Trinity doctrine from about 3 years ago. When I did not know Jesus, I spent just as much or more time trying to show others the error of the Trinity doctrine and other things that "Christendom" teaches than what I spend trying to share the gospel now. I was convinced that the Trinity doctrine kept people away from God. Now that I know Jesus I believe that the Trinity doctrine has been misrepresented by cults that keep people away from God by keeping them from fully trusting Jesus. I fully trust Him now and have been born again.
The Christian was trying to show me scriptures. I was a Jehovah's Witness during this conversation and I was replying in red. My screen name on the message board was MamaElephant:

Regarding Jesus as God, here are some starters, many more where these came from:

1) John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"  Jesus said to him,  "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."  Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God, and Jesus did not correct him. That is a good point. I have known of this scripture before, but I will look into it again as I don't remember specifics.

3) In Exodus 34:14, we are told to worship no other God, Yehovah (Jehovah never appears in scripture, so even that word is made up buy JWs!). Yet in Hebrews 1:6, the angels worship Christ! Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
There are scores more that JWs have to explain away. I will look into this one. I am surprised that the explanation isn't readily available in the back of the NWT.  The NWT says "do obeisance to him". I have found the New Jerusalem Bible very accurate, and it says "Again, when he brings the First-born into the world, he says: Let all the angels of God pay him homage." Hebrews 9:24 states that Christ entered into heaven to appear before the person of God for us. Do you have an explanation for that?

Oh regarding Genesis where God says "Let us create man in our image" JWs believe that he was speaking to Jesus, as all things were created for him and through him (I believe that is in Colossians.

MamaElephant, you sound like a nice person, I am not out to intentionally offend you, but Jesus, the true Jesus, after all is the “Rock of offense”. Please consider this verse:

Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

I am glad you defend creation. However, you are doing as bad or worse than an evolutionist, because you are teaching a false doctrine to your kids that puts them in eternal danger. Please consider that if you are wrong (which scripture overwhelmingly says you are), you couldn’t be wrong in a more serious way.

Fred

They did not claim to be inspired of God. Prophets do. so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would!
Another example:

Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)

So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine? Interesting. The term "worship" used in the Greek Septuagint was also used here: 1 Kings 1:23 where Abraham is showing honor to businessmen as customary at the time. Proverbs 4:18, John 16:12 indicate that God's servants will progressively refine their beliefs. Daniel 12:4, 8,9; 1 Peter 1:10-12; Acts 1:6,7; 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 show that God's people have not always understood everything.

http://www.evolutionfairytale.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3658&st=100

Now in this message I am quoted by the Christian, but the colors are going to stay the same. I am sure you can figure it out. 

MamaElephant, on Sep 23 2010, 07:23 PM, said:

“I am sure now in my heart and mind Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people.”

While I don’t have all the answers, I am 100% sure Jesus IS Who He said He is. So, that being said, I am 100% sure, without a shred of doubt, that JWs are wolves in sheep’s clothing (whether they realize it or not) deceived by Satan, and will lead many along with themselves to eternal damnation. We all deserve to go to hell, but faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross is our only path to salvation. It has to be the real Jesus, it has to be God who redeems us. It makes perfect logical sense. I pray you see the wisdom of your sister (hopefully she is a saved Chirstian).

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“I will always continue to test though”

But I see a serious problem in all your posts. You don’t allow your “tests” to be falsified. You’ve got a ready-made “answer” for everything regardless of whether or not it makes sense. For example:

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“I would not call them prophecies, but supposition. That is why my sister left. I really appreciate the fact that the Witnesses will admit that they were wrong and make changes.”

You don’t want to call them prophesies because you’ve already been told what God thinks of false prophets, so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would! What further proof do you need that this is a false religion created by fallible men who, because their hearts were AGAINST the True God, were easily influenced by the prince of this world?

Another example:

Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)

So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine?

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“The older copies of the Greek Septuagint version of the New Testament did indeed contain the Tetragrammaton.”

Do you realize what you just said? The Septuagint is OLD Testament. There is no evidence of Tetragrammaton in the New Testament, it is pure speculation, and a gross exaggeration for the JWs to insert it 237 times in the New Testament.

Here is a good quote from a powerful source on the shenanigans of the JWs:

“The New World Translation has time and time again demonstrated that it is not really a translation. Although those on the committee understood that it is not a translators job to freely substitute words in that are not in the text, and ignore every ancient manuscript in favor of hand-picked translations that were chosen to support a preconceived doctrinal bias, that is exactly what they have done. To makes matters worse, they ignore the same sources they tout when those sources disagree with their own slanted position (ie. "J" sources that proclaim that Jesus is YHWH). The NWT cannot be trusted as an accurate rendering of any text, whether New Testament or Old. Items such as the 1961 version claim that "Jehovah" appears in the "Christian Greek Scriptures" are proof that the NWT was written to be a propaganda piece, and will tell a deliberate falsehood to bolster it's claims.” - http://www.neirr.org...ragrammaton.htm

Fred

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity

Many Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Trinity doctrine to be a work of evil that keeps people confused about God and distant from Him. This is because the Jehovah's Witness organization has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine, mistranslated scriptures, and lied about early church beliefs. This can help: http://4jehovah.org/.../yes-you-should-believe-trinity/

When asked what keeps people from becoming Christians, the Trinity doctrine is the most frequent answer. I believe that these details are not required for salvation. Remember the Roman who asked how to be saved. Did he know anything of any Trinity doctrine, or refutation there-of? No. And what was the answer? "Believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved you and your household." Acts 16:31 "the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

I do, however, find this debate important because when the deity of Christ is not accepted it keeps people from asking Him for life (John 4:10; 7:37-38) receiving Him (John 1:12) calling upon His name (1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Kings 18:24; Romans 10:9-12) Trusting Him to save us (1 Thes 1:10) having a personal relationship with Him (1 Corinthians 1:9; John 5:39-40) and having a relationship with the Father as a result (Ephesians 2:18, 1 John 2:23)


I have decided to devote a section of this blog to the Trinity doctrine. May God bless those who are seeking Him.

How can you believe in the Trinity after being a Jehovah's Witness?

• Three very important things happened before I came to believe in the Trinity (which is not perfect, as it is men's words and did you know that the words used in the doctrine are said to be used in new ways, so the term person as used in the Trinity doctrine does not mean person in the way we are used to using the term*). 

  1. I trusted in Christ to save me and no longer feared end times because of reading 1 Thessalonians 1:10. 

  2. I realized that my religious leaders were taking Christ's place as my ONLY Mediator from God and told Him, "Lord, I will never listen to them again, only you." 1 Timothy 2:5; Acts 3:22; Hebrews 1:1-2; 1 John 2:27

  3. I let go of the need to really understand the doctrine of the Trinity, because 1 John 2:23 says that it doesn't really matter.

  
  I believe in the Trinity now because after receiving Christ I was reading the New Testament and I saw that the Holy Spirit is of both the Son and the Father as they are one. I saw this in  Ephesians 4:4 and Romans 8:9, John chapter 14 and specifically the context surrounding and including verse 23.

  *From the Catholic Catechism: 251. "In order to articulate the dogma of the Trinity, the Church had to develop her own terminology with the help of certain notions of philosophical origin: 'substance', 'person' or 'hypostasis', 'relation' and so on. In doing this, she did not submit the faith to human wisdom, but gave a new and unprecedented meaning to these terms, which from then on would be used to signify an ineffable mystery, 'infinitely beyond all that we can humanly understand'. [Paul VI, CPC # 2.]" 

To Whom Do You Belong?

"To whom do you belong? Which God do you obey?
For just the one to whom you bow Your master is, you serve him now.

You cannot serve two gods; ..."

This is Song 207 in the book Sing Praises to Jehovah that I used when I was an active Jehovah's Witness. It is titled "To Whom Do We Belong?" and 1 Corinthians 6:20 is cited.

So let's answer the question. 1 Corinthians 6:20 says "for ​you were bought with a price."

Who is the Lord that bought us? Romans 14:8-9 answers:

"So whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord*. For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that He might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.”

I have also noticed that Colossians 3:23-24 says to "do everything whole-souled as to Jehovah... slave for the master, Christ."

and Ephesians 6:5-7 "You slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters ... as to the Christ, not by way of eye‐service as men pleasers, but as Christ’s slaves, ... Be slaves with good inclinations, as to Jehovah,"

The New World Translation also says that Jesus is "a god". Notice what the song says, "You cannot serve two gods; two Masters cannot share". The song is correct. Matthew 6:24, Exodus 20:3, Deuteronomy 5:7.

To whom do you belong?

(*Keep in mind that the New World Translation says Jehovah instead of Lord when the Greek word kupiw and kupiou are translated in the first 3 instances of the word in these verses. Luke 17:5, John 20:2, Romans 14:14, and Romans 16:18 are a few examples of the same Greek words translated by the New World Translation as Lord and referring to Jesus. Please consider getting a Kingdom Interlinear Translation from Jehovah's Witnesses so that you can verify the Greek yourself.)

Song 207 To Whom Do We Belong? (1 Corinthians 6:20)

To whom do you belong? Which God do you obey?
For just the one to whom you bow Your master is, you serve him now.

You cannot serve two gods; Both masters cannot share

The love of your heart in its every part. To neither you'd be fair.

To whom do you belong? Which God will you obey?
For one is false and one is true, So make you choice; it's up to you.

Shall Caesar of this world Claim your allegiance still?
Or will you obey the true God today and vow to do his will?

To whom do I belong? Jehovah I'll obey.

This God of truth I'll gladly serve; From paying my vow I'll not swerve.

He bought me at great cost; I've ceased from serving men.

The death of his Son my ransom has won; I'll not turn back again.

To God we do belong! There's no uncertainty.

The unity that he foretold We now experience in his fold.

Just like the fragrant oil Upon the high priest's head,

We find it so sweet together to meet and with his truth be fed.

(Sing Praises to Jehovah, songbook, Jehovah's Witnesses)

"I and the Father are one"

I get it! "All that belongs to the Father is mine; this is why I said, 'The Spirit will tell you whatever he receives from me.'" John 16:15

The Father and the Son have the same one Spirit!!! Romans 8:9; Ephesians 4:4

Wow, I just love it when a connection clicks! ♥

Who Created All Things?

Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?);-- Isaiah 44:24 

All things came into being through Him (the Word), and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.-- John 1:3 

But to the Son He says:...10 “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.-- Hebrews 1:8





who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, wh...

ether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; --Colossians 1:15-16

“who has come to know Jehovah’s mind, or who has become his counselor?” ...For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. To him be the glory for ever. Amen.-- Romans 11:33-36

Please use an interlinear to look these up in Greek.

A Scripture that may surprise Jehovah's Witnesses

"The things concealed belong to Jehovah our God," --Deuteronomy 29:29

Who raised Christ from the dead?

Romans 10:9 God
Romans 6:4 The Father
John 2:19-24 Jesus
Romans 8:11 Holy Spirit

I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Revelation 1:18

When did Jesus have the keys to death and hades?

No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. John 10:18