Wednesday, April 30, 2014

As a Jehovah's Witness I argued against the Trinity doctrine.

I would like to show you my attitude about the Trinity doctrine from about 3 years ago. When I did not know Jesus, I spent just as much or more time trying to show others the error of the Trinity doctrine and other things that "Christendom" teaches than what I spend trying to share the gospel now. I was convinced that the Trinity doctrine kept people away from God. Now that I know Jesus I believe that the Trinity doctrine has been misrepresented by cults that keep people away from God by keeping them from fully trusting Jesus. I fully trust Him now and have been born again.
The Christian was trying to show me scriptures. I was a Jehovah's Witness during this conversation and I was replying in red. My screen name on the message board was MamaElephant:

Regarding Jesus as God, here are some starters, many more where these came from:

1) John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"  Jesus said to him,  "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."  Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God, and Jesus did not correct him. That is a good point. I have known of this scripture before, but I will look into it again as I don't remember specifics.

3) In Exodus 34:14, we are told to worship no other God, Yehovah (Jehovah never appears in scripture, so even that word is made up buy JWs!). Yet in Hebrews 1:6, the angels worship Christ! Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
There are scores more that JWs have to explain away. I will look into this one. I am surprised that the explanation isn't readily available in the back of the NWT.  :blink:The NWT says "do obeisance to him". I have found the New Jerusalem Bible very accurate, and it says "Again, when he brings the First-born into the world, he says: Let all the angels of God pay him homage." Hebrews 9:24 states that Christ entered into heaven to appear before the person of God for us. Do you have an explanation for that?

Oh regarding Genesis where God says "Let us create man in our image" JWs believe that he was speaking to Jesus, as all things were created for him and through him (I believe that is in Colossians.

MamaElephant, you sound like a nice person, I am not out to intentionally offend you, but Jesus, the true Jesus, after all is the “Rock of offense”. Please consider this verse:

Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”

I am glad you defend creation. However, you are doing as bad or worse than an evolutionist, because you are teaching a false doctrine to your kids that puts them in eternal danger. Please consider that if you are wrong (which scripture overwhelmingly says you are), you couldn’t be wrong in a more serious way.


They did not claim to be inspired of God. Prophets do. so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would!
Another example:

Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)

So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine? Interesting. The term "worship" used in the Greek Septuagint was also used here: 1 Kings 1:23 where Abraham is showing honor to businessmen as customary at the time. Proverbs 4:18, John 16:12 indicate that God's servants will progressively refine their beliefs. Daniel 12:4, 8,9; 1 Peter 1:10-12; Acts 1:6,7; 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 show that God's people have not always understood everything.

Now in this message I am quoted by the Christian, but the colors are going to stay the same. I am sure you can figure it out. 

MamaElephant, on Sep 23 2010, 07:23 PM, said:
“I am sure now in my heart and mind Jehovah's Witnesses are God's people.”
View Post

While I don’t have all the answers, I am 100% sure Jesus IS Who He said He is. So, that being said, I am 100% sure, without a shred of doubt, that JWs are wolves in sheep’s clothing (whether they realize it or not) deceived by Satan, and will lead many along with themselves to eternal damnation. We all deserve to go to hell, but faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross is our only path to salvation. It has to be the real Jesus, it has to be God who redeems us. It makes perfect logical sense. I pray you see the wisdom of your sister (hopefully she is a saved Chirstian).
“I will always continue to test though”

But I see a serious problem in all your posts. You don’t allow your “tests” to be falsified. You’ve got a ready-made “answer” for everything regardless of whether or not it makes sense. For example:
“I would not call them prophecies, but supposition. That is why my sister left. I really appreciate the fact that the Witnesses will admit that they were wrong and make changes.”

You don’t want to call them prophesies because you’ve already been told what God thinks of false prophets, so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would! What further proof do you need that this is a false religion created by fallible men who, because their hearts were AGAINST the True God, were easily influenced by the prince of this world?

Another example:

Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)

So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine?
“The older copies of the Greek Septuagint version of the New Testament did indeed contain the Tetragrammaton.”

Do you realize what you just said? The Septuagint is OLD Testament. There is no evidence of Tetragrammaton in the New Testament, it is pure speculation, and a gross exaggeration for the JWs to insert it 237 times in the New Testament.

Here is a good quote from a powerful source on the shenanigans of the JWs:

“The New World Translation has time and time again demonstrated that it is not really a translation. Although those on the committee understood that it is not a translators job to freely substitute words in that are not in the text, and ignore every ancient manuscript in favor of hand-picked translations that were chosen to support a preconceived doctrinal bias, that is exactly what they have done. To makes matters worse, they ignore the same sources they tout when those sources disagree with their own slanted position (ie. "J" sources that proclaim that Jesus is YHWH). The NWT cannot be trusted as an accurate rendering of any text, whether New Testament or Old. Items such as the 1961 version claim that "Jehovah" appears in the "Christian Greek Scriptures" are proof that the NWT was written to be a propaganda piece, and will tell a deliberate falsehood to bolster it's claims.” -


Tuesday, April 29, 2014

Exercising Faith?

“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything. But the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." Acts 17:24-25; Romans 6:23; Romans 4:5

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity

Many Jehovah's Witnesses believe the Trinity doctrine to be a work of evil that keeps people confused about God and distant from Him. This is because the Jehovah's Witness organization has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine, mistranslated scriptures, and lied about early church beliefs. This can help:

When asked what keeps people from becoming Christians, the Trinity doctrine is the most frequent answer. I believe that these details are not required for salvation. Remember the Roman who asked how to be saved. Did he know anything of any Trinity doctrine, or refutation there-of? No. And what was the answer? "Believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved you and your household." Acts 16:31 "the one who confesses the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

I do, however, find this debate important because when the deity of Christ is not accepted it keeps people from asking Him for life (John 4:10; 7:37-38) receiving Him (John 1:12) calling upon His name (1 Corinthians 1:2; 1 Kings 18:24; Romans 10:9-12) Trusting Him to save us (1 Thes 1:10) having a personal relationship with Him (1 Corinthians 1:9; John 5:39-40) and having a relationship with the Father as a result (Ephesians 2:18, 1 John 2:23)

I have decided to devote a section of this blog to the Trinity doctrine. May God bless those who are seeking Him.

More thoughts on church:

"We cannot, like God, look into hearts to see who are the true believers. We can only go by what we hear people say they believe. That is why, broadly speaking, the Church includes all those who assemble around Word and Sacrament, that is, all who say they believe in Jesus Christ as our one and only Lord and Savior from sin because He died and rose for us. This is the Church we are able to see-- the community of the baptized gathered around the Word of God and the Table of the Lord-- everyone who participates outwardly in the life of the congregation. Here both believers and hypocrites are all mixed together.

In the narrow sense, the Church includes only believers in Jesus. It is a fellowship of faith and of the Holy Spirit working in our hearts by the Word of God. Only God can see the heart. -- Lutheranism 101

Sunday, April 20, 2014

"For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin." Romans 6:7

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that dying is a good thing. They base this on Romans 6:7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from his sin." and believe that if you die before Armageddon, you are resurrected into paradise... this is easier for you than remaining faithful during the "great tribulation". This verse is taken out of context. see verse 3:"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" 

"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Colossians 3:3

Thursday, April 17, 2014

Maundy Thursday with a former Jehovah's Witness

Maundy Thursday (also known as Holy Thursday, Covenant Thursday, Great and Holy Thursday, Sheer Thursday and Thursday of Mysteries) is the Christian feast, or holy day, falling on the Thursday before Easter. It commemorates the Maundy and Last Supper of Jesus Christ with the Apostles as described in the Canonical gospels. It is followed by Good Friday. -- Wikipedia

I have been attending a Confessional Lutheran Church for some time now, so I was familiar with most of the service. Confession (the congregation confessing together that we have sinned), Absolution (the pastor announcing forgiveness of sins), Confessing/reciting the Apostle's Creed, prayers for the congregation and praying the Lord's Prayer together, readings from the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the gospels, the sermon, songs of praise, and even Holy Communion. 

But communion was different for me today. I was acutely aware that Jehovah's Witnesses held their "Memorial" on Tuesday, and that for 35 years I also mocked my Savior. For 35 years I refused the gift of His body and blood. But not this year. This year when the Lord's Supper was commemorated, I obeyed. I received Him.

Then after communion, the Lord's forgiveness still on my lips, tears still in my eyes... was the stripping of the altar. The candles were snuffed out. The wine was removed. No longer was the Bread of Life on the altar. And we read a Psalm together, as we usually do, but this time it was Psalm 22. The words of the Lord of Life as he died. The events of the night as he was crucified. For me. For you.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, so far from the words of my groaning? O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer, by night, and am not silent. Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One; you are the praise of Israel.  In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them.  They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.  But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people.  All who see me mock me; they hurl insults, shaking their heads:  "He trusts in the LORD; let the LORD rescue him. Let him deliver him, since he delights in him."  Yet you brought me out of the womb; you made me trust in you even at my mother's breast.  From birth I was cast upon you; from my mother's womb you have been my God.  Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help.  Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.  Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me.  I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me.  My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death.  Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.  I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me.  They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.  But you, O LORD, be not far off; O my Strength, come quickly to help me.  Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.  Rescue me from the mouth of the lions; save me from the horns of the wild oxen.  I will declare your name to my brothers; in the congregation I will praise you.  You who fear the LORD, praise him! All you descendants of Jacob, honor him! Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!  For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.  From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly; before those who fear you will I fulfill my vows.  The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him-- may your hearts live forever!  All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him, for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations. All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-- those who cannot keep themselves alive.  Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.  They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn-- for he has done it.

for more information on Maundy Thursday see

Sunday, April 6, 2014

Update on me and church membership

I have joined a congregation. I am not there every Sunday but when I am we hold hands and pray the Lord's prayer together. We confess our sins as a group, all of us sinners and beggars coming to receive from the Lord. We confess our faith together and read the Psalms together. We pray together for the prayer requests of the congregation. We receive forgiveness. We partake of the Lord's Supper together. We are a family, and I love it.

Saturday, April 5, 2014

How good is good enough? Does God expect me to be perfect?

  • In Matthew 19 is Jesus teaching that no one is good but God. That no one follows every law. That someone will think that they do, but it isn't good enough. And once again, in verse 21, Jesus mentions the need to be perfect. Jesus is insisting that the only way into the Kingdom is perfection! We know that no one is perfect. (1 John 1:8-9; James 3:2) Yet here He is, the judge of the world, insisting on, demanding perfection! So how do we resolve this?(see also Matthew 5:17-20 and 48)

    Matthew 19: 16-25
    And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 

    The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be perfect, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. “Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?”

    "You must be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect" says Jesus at Matthew 5:48


    "But wait a minute", I think, "David sinned and got punished, but God thought he was perfect enough to be in his kingdom, having salvation, how can this be?"

    Let's see what David has to say about it: "Blessed is the one whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered." Psalm 37:21 and Romans 4:7

    Romans 3 explains about David: "First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God. 3True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?"

    20 For no one can ever be made right with God by doing what the law commands. The law simply shows us how sinful we are.21 But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Mosesi and the prophets long ago. 22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.
    23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. 
    People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. 

    Now keep in mind our question, why is David promised God's Kingdom when we know he was not perfect? Read on in Romans 3:

    This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

    When Jesus' sacrfice is applied to us... we are perfect. Forever perfect, even as we are still being sanctified. "For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." Hebrews 10:14

    God declares sinners to be right in his sight, yes, perfect! When we believe in Jesus. Romans 3:26

Wednesday, April 2, 2014

When Jehovah's Witnesses invite you to their Memorial

Say that you think that it is wonderful that they are inviting as many people as possible to partake of the flesh and blood of Christ, 

When they deny it, ask them why they are not imitating Jesus, who invited everyone to partake of His flesh... 

show them John 6:53-54