I
would like to show you my attitude about the Trinity doctrine from
about 3 years ago. When I did not know Jesus, I spent just as much or
more time trying to show others the error of the Trinity doctrine and
other things that "Christendom" teaches than what I spend trying to
share the gospel now. I was convinced that the Trinity doctrine kept people away from God. Now that I know Jesus I believe that the Trinity doctrine has been misrepresented by cults that keep people away from God by keeping them from fully trusting Jesus. I fully trust Him now and have been born again.
The Christian was trying to show me scriptures. I was a Jehovah's Witness during this conversation and I was replying in red. My screen name on the message board was MamaElephant:
Regarding Jesus as God, here are some starters, many more where these came from:
1) John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God, and Jesus did not correct him. That is a good point. I have known of this scripture before, but I will look into it again as I don't remember specifics.
3) In Exodus 34:14, we are told to worship no other God, Yehovah (Jehovah never appears in scripture, so even that word is made up buy JWs!). Yet in Hebrews 1:6, the angels worship Christ! Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
There are scores more that JWs have to explain away. I will look into this one. I am surprised that the explanation isn't readily available in the back of the NWT.
The NWT says "do
obeisance to him". I have found the New Jerusalem Bible very
accurate, and it says "Again, when he brings the First-born into the
world, he says: Let all the angels of God pay him homage." Hebrews 9:24
states that Christ entered into heaven to appear before the person of God
for us. Do you have an explanation for that?
Oh regarding Genesis where God says "Let us create man in our image" JWs believe that he was speaking to Jesus, as all things were created for him and through him (I believe that is in Colossians.
MamaElephant, you sound like a nice person, I am not out to intentionally offend you, but Jesus, the true Jesus, after all is the “Rock of offense”. Please consider this verse:
Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”
I am glad you defend creation. However, you are doing as bad or worse than an evolutionist, because you are teaching a false doctrine to your kids that puts them in eternal danger. Please consider that if you are wrong (which scripture overwhelmingly says you are), you couldn’t be wrong in a more serious way.
Fred
The Christian was trying to show me scriptures. I was a Jehovah's Witness during this conversation and I was replying in red. My screen name on the message board was MamaElephant:
Regarding Jesus as God, here are some starters, many more where these came from:
1) John 20:28-29 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Thomas called Jesus both Lord and God, and Jesus did not correct him. That is a good point. I have known of this scripture before, but I will look into it again as I don't remember specifics.
3) In Exodus 34:14, we are told to worship no other God, Yehovah (Jehovah never appears in scripture, so even that word is made up buy JWs!). Yet in Hebrews 1:6, the angels worship Christ! Heb 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
There are scores more that JWs have to explain away. I will look into this one. I am surprised that the explanation isn't readily available in the back of the NWT.
The NWT says "do
obeisance to him". I have found the New Jerusalem Bible very
accurate, and it says "Again, when he brings the First-born into the
world, he says: Let all the angels of God pay him homage." Hebrews 9:24
states that Christ entered into heaven to appear before the person of God
for us. Do you have an explanation for that?Oh regarding Genesis where God says "Let us create man in our image" JWs believe that he was speaking to Jesus, as all things were created for him and through him (I believe that is in Colossians.
MamaElephant, you sound like a nice person, I am not out to intentionally offend you, but Jesus, the true Jesus, after all is the “Rock of offense”. Please consider this verse:
Mark 9:42 "But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.”
I am glad you defend creation. However, you are doing as bad or worse than an evolutionist, because you are teaching a false doctrine to your kids that puts them in eternal danger. Please consider that if you are wrong (which scripture overwhelmingly says you are), you couldn’t be wrong in a more serious way.
Fred
They did not claim to be inspired of
God. Prophets do. so you create for yourself an exit by calling them
“supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off,
you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were
wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would!
Another example:
Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:
"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)
So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine? Interesting. The term "worship" used in the Greek Septuagint was also used here: 1 Kings 1:23 where Abraham is showing honor to businessmen as customary at the time. Proverbs 4:18, John 16:12 indicate that God's servants will progressively refine their beliefs. Daniel 12:4, 8,9; 1 Peter 1:10-12; Acts 1:6,7; 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 show that God's people have not always understood everything.
Another example:
Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:
"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)
So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine? Interesting. The term "worship" used in the Greek Septuagint was also used here: 1 Kings 1:23 where Abraham is showing honor to businessmen as customary at the time. Proverbs 4:18, John 16:12 indicate that God's servants will progressively refine their beliefs. Daniel 12:4, 8,9; 1 Peter 1:10-12; Acts 1:6,7; 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 show that God's people have not always understood everything.
Now in this message I am quoted by the Christian, but the colors are going to stay the same. I am sure you can figure it out.
MamaElephant, on Sep
23 2010, 07:23 PM, said:
“I am sure now in my heart and mind Jehovah's Witnesses are
God's people.”
While I don’t have all the answers, I am 100% sure Jesus IS Who He said He is. So, that being said, I am 100% sure, without a shred of doubt, that JWs are wolves in sheep’s clothing (whether they realize it or not) deceived by Satan, and will lead many along with themselves to eternal damnation. We all deserve to go to hell, but faith in Jesus and what He did on the cross is our only path to salvation. It has to be the real Jesus, it has to be God who redeems us. It makes perfect logical sense. I pray you see the wisdom of your sister (hopefully she is a saved Chirstian).
Quote
“I will always continue to test though”
But I see a serious problem in all your posts. You don’t allow your “tests” to be falsified. You’ve got a ready-made “answer” for everything regardless of whether or not it makes sense. For example:
Quote
“I would not call them prophecies, but supposition. That is
why my sister left. I really appreciate the fact that the Witnesses will admit
that they were wrong and make changes.”
You don’t want to call them prophesies because you’ve already been told what God thinks of false prophets, so you create for yourself an exit by calling them “supposition”. Yet everyone knows they were prophecies. Then, to top it off, you pat them on the back for admitting they were wrong! Of course they were wrong, the world did NOT come to an end when they said it would! What further proof do you need that this is a false religion created by fallible men who, because their hearts were AGAINST the True God, were easily influenced by the prince of this world?
Another example:
Fred: Why did JWs previously worship Jesus, up until 1954?
You: “That is odd for you to think.”. You then go on about the Trinity, which is a strawman. Here is a quote from the Watchtower:
"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov. 15 p.33 (Scan is here)
So, how do you get out of this one? Is this another example of how you are proud that the JWs corrected yet another mistake in doctrine?
Quote
“The older copies of the Greek Septuagint version of the New
Testament did indeed contain the Tetragrammaton.”
Do you realize what you just said? The Septuagint is OLD Testament. There is no evidence of Tetragrammaton in the New Testament, it is pure speculation, and a gross exaggeration for the JWs to insert it 237 times in the New Testament.
Here is a good quote from a powerful source on the shenanigans of the JWs:
“The New World Translation has time and time again demonstrated that it is not really a translation. Although those on the committee understood that it is not a translators job to freely substitute words in that are not in the text, and ignore every ancient manuscript in favor of hand-picked translations that were chosen to support a preconceived doctrinal bias, that is exactly what they have done. To makes matters worse, they ignore the same sources they tout when those sources disagree with their own slanted position (ie. "J" sources that proclaim that Jesus is YHWH). The NWT cannot be trusted as an accurate rendering of any text, whether New Testament or Old. Items such as the 1961 version claim that "Jehovah" appears in the "Christian Greek Scriptures" are proof that the NWT was written to be a propaganda piece, and will tell a deliberate falsehood to bolster it's claims.” - http://www.neirr.org...ragrammaton.htm
Fred
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